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The VeggieChess SatChat

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Lori was the first in after a long absence! In fact, she was early! So early that she had no one but herself to talk to. So that is just what she did. Her conversation with herself touched upon an explanation as to why she was early (she felt she would forget if she weren't), what time it was where she was, summer vacation, the time in Canada and finally having exhausted all possible topics of conversation that she might interest herself in over a whole hour, she started to sing.

Larry must have heard her, because he came in just then! They hadn't met before so introductions were made and they each proceeded to tell the other how they became part of the VeggieChess family.

Kyron and Sangeeta appeared within 1 second of each other and had a little chat about the chemistry Kyron was studying. Sangeeta explained to Larry about Lori's background in saving Daisy the pig which is discussed at length in this thread:

There followed a brief discussion regarding Lori's Straight Edge thread:

It is interesting how people are surprised when they come across some people who don't drink, smoke, do drugs (even caffeine) because some of these habits are made to appear so natural in society. I recall that people used to say that I was a model teenager because I didn't drink, yet the same people thought I was weird several years later for exactly the same reason! Sangeeta put it in a very interesting way:

"ya i don't like to put stimulants in my body…id rather just use my own resources to get "high" or get energy– i see too many people dependent on things outside of themselves- and that can lead to misery!"

Larry and Lori both thought they might stop the caffeine. Larry had already won his battle against cigarettes, but Lori was not so fortunate in that she has developed asthma from second-hand smoke from her mother. Having been one of the earliest and active members of the Non-Smokers Rights Association back in the 1970s, I can only emphasize how dangerous second-hand smoke really is.

Larry and Sangeeta started up a few puns, just to bring back memories of last week's chat, but it didn't go too far - well, at least not yet - though Lori was probably getting a fair idea of what to expect considering Larry asked her if she ever went "expLORIng in f-LORI-da". In fact, it was curious that Sangeeta told Lori not to encourage Larry because she said that "he's gonna start punning all over the place if you give him an inch…he'll take a mile!" That is rather a case of the rot calling the metal, plaque (well we do the best we can with what we've got, so if you don't get it, just ask)!

Ray came in then and told everyone that the cat Mena ( who had been living at their place for several weeks, was being taken to adoption! People congratulated Ray on the excellent postings he had contributed to the KFC Supplier Cruelty Expose thread:

I have to admit that one particular post of Ray's which specifically addressed SVW, was so excellent that I woke up at 4am one morning laughing about it and wasn't able to get back to sleep for quite a while!

Lori was particularly glad that KFC's involvement had been revealed since she had been leafleting against the company since the beginning of the year. The cruelty exposed in that thread (as well as through the link to the very graphic undercover video) though is perhaps best descibed with Larry's words after he returned from reading it:

"That's hideous. May God forgive them"

Ray mentioned that they were concerned about their cat Gallahad who has liver problems and Sangeeta said that her roomate has found that cats often develop liver problems because they are fed commercial cat food which contains slaughterhouse products with tumors and other diseases (as well as euthanized bodies of pets) and recommended a great site to visit

Some people think that because cats are naturally carnivorous, they have to be fed meat. What they don't realize is that cat food is largely cereal anyway and that the dietary requirements of cats can be met completely through vegetarian sources including the specific need for the amino acid taurine. We get our vegetarian cat food through Evolution ( If you wish to make your own vegetarian catfood, you can get complete nutritional supplementation through James Peden's HOANA (

Then there was a quick and interesting discussion about how people don't really get to find out how meat actually is produced:

[sangeeta] papa_bear> the sad thing is that whenever PETA goes undercover, we always find hideous cruelty like that! it's soo sad…in the US over 27 BILLION animals are killed for food…it's just unconscienable! [papa_bear] sangeeta> I believe very strongly that humankind is failing miserably in our obligation to manage God's creation responsibly. [sangeeta] papa_bear> ya…you know tho what gives me hope…is everytime we show Meet Your Meat videos ( to passers by- they begin to question thier choices, and some become veg on the spot…it is allowed to continue cuz people don't know what takes place behind closed doors… [rgoudie] sangeeta> Exactly! You never see a freakin' McDonald's or KFC commercial showing how the meat is prepared. Only those smiling faces after the fact … It's almost as if these companies expect their customers to believe that the meat is magically created by divine elves.

I came into the room about now only to be greeted by the very suspicious looking:

[sangeeta] papa_bear> oh oh! don't say a word to PRAD!!!!

However, before I was able to pursue this matter, I was very pleased to hear that Larry's sermon went really well. Larry even had a joke to break the ice:

[papa_bear] "We have a minor roster conflict this morning. It seems I'm scheduled for creche. So I need someone to preach for me "

Now for some reason everyone else seemed to get the joke, while I was looking for a pun, so the joke was finally explained to me with a snide little comment from Ranjana that all jokes don't have to be puns. Despite this unfortunate circumstance, I was able to salvage the situation with

[pradtf] papa_bear> well i should have known that this sort of thing would creche up to me sooner or later

Here is Larry's most excellent sermon: 

Kirksey came in not because Rachel let him, but because she was somewhere in Florida. He and Larry proceeded to have a discussion on preaching.

Larry was surprised at how quickly Lori read his sermon and then found out that she had also read the particular passage in the Bible the sermon was about. However, Lori in telling him all this, mispelled 'read' to 'rad' and that started a radvalanche:

[bestofme] Well, I read the scripture first in my bible, and then went ahead to rad your sermon [bestofme] *read(lol…rad…) [papa_bear] bestofme> the meaning is RADically different that way [imvegan] papa_bear> don't be radiculous [papa_bear] pradtf> you didn't find the ending radundant? [pradtf] papa_bear> no only radiant! [imvegan] papa_bear> no he was rady for it [papa_bear] imvegan> pRADtf is always ready for a pun! [imvegan] papa_bear> aww youre just paRADing your stuff [papa_bear] imvegan> just plying my tRADe [sangeeta] i think all of you are just RAD dude!! [imvegan] papa_bear> well, you;ve gRADduated now [sangeeta] papa_bear> well the good thing is that we all RADify your sermon!

But when Larry said he was out of rad puns, I tried to take things in a different direction (even though the rad hung on):

[pradtf] sangeeta> yes but do you think he should preach from an altar? [sangeeta] pradtf> not in his punny state– it might create an altrication! [bestofme] I know of some sermons through RADio [kirksey957] That would be RADical [sangeeta] papa_bear> congRADulations…you did your best! [pradtf] sangeeta> agreed! people might think he had altarior motives [imvegan] sangeeta> are you trying to be altaruistic? [sangeeta] imvegan> altar ego just shows through sometimes [imvegan] sangeeta> well it has no altarnative! [pradtf] sangeeta> but he could always counter those people by saying he was just exercising his freedom of preach [imvegan] papa_bear> don't fALTAR !! [pradtf] papa_bear> guess that altared your plans

Then Sangeeta brought fashion into the whole thing:

[sangeeta] papa_bear> just for that…i think you can wear a halter top…your wife could lend you one [papa_bear] sangeeta> I'm not BRAve enough to preach in one [imvegan] papa_bear> oh brather!! I just got that one [sangeeta] papa_bear> i think in this way they will be inspired…but you still might remain emBRArassed… [imvegan] sangeeta> don't be mean, you should emBRAce him

Then for some reason, Larry got inspired to put his sermon to rap music:

[papa_bear] Yo, listen up, 'cause I'm 'bout to get my preach on [papa_bear] Mark chapter 2 is the text I will teach from [papa_bear] Jesus comin' home to Capernaum

and with a little help from Sangeeta:

[sangeeta] papa_bear> jesus was a man from gal'le…and he can to earth to set us free… LOL! [papa_bear] People's gathered 'round. Where was dey from? [papa_bear] Galilee, Judea, Jerusalem [papa_bear] Fo' men wit' a paralytic come

Lori returned to exclaim:

[bestofme] wow, I'm glad I left when I did, with all this rap cough cough talent…..

but Sangeeta countered with:

[sangeeta] bestofme> well it least its not the cRAP you hear on the radio!

and I pointed out:

[pradtf] bestofme> larry is not standing on sermony

followed by these conclusions:

[sangeeta] papa_bear> i love this RAPsody [imvegan] papa_bear> you have such good RAPport with your audience [papa_bear] kirksey957> I'm starting my own clan. The RAPostles

To which I had to add:

[pradtf] papa_bear> well that's bound to be letter than the apostal service

Ray reappeared having taken Mena to adoption, so everyone took advantage of that:

[pradtf] rgoudie> you must have rayarraynged your activities [bestofme] Theres a RAYPture of rain coming down over here [pradtf] bestofme> you can't put a reign on rayin [rgoudie] Did I make it??? [pradtf] grayt!!! [sangeeta] rgoudie> congraytulations! [sangeeta] rgoudie> a ray of hope just decended upon us… [imvegan] rgoudie> it's not a bad thing so you can raylax

Then the focus turned to Lori because she had commented on the puns:

[bestofme] lol! you guys are going to me with laughter! [sangeeta] bestofme> ohhhh…isn't it gLORIous! [pradtf] sangeeta> well she is quite loriticulate you know [imvegan] sangeeta> so many puns Sangeeta, just depLORIble!!

So guess who should come along in the middle of all this? It was Dyl!

The puns had apparently made Lori hungry and she was about to go and have a bean and rice lunch, but she was dylayed with:

[sangeeta] bestofme> can u share? i've bean so nice to you! [pradtf] sangeeta> you mean bean so rice to you kirksey957] The best line of all rap: "give me a sista can't resist her. Red beans and nice did miss her." [rgoudie] bestofme> It was RICE of you to visit.

And as Larry left to go to bed, Ray sent him the following goodbye:

[rgoudie] papa_bear> Sweet BEANS.

Speaking of disappearing, Kyron told everyone that Ord the snake had left for the 3rd time. He just seems to come and go as he pleases. Another snake, Daedroth was like that last summer. Anyway, just so Ord's name wasn't taken in vain:

[rgoudie] kyrontf> Is that an ORDinary occurrence? [imvegan] rgoudie> boy, you're sure playing with wORDs

And after Dyl warned Ray not to encourage the punning in others, he was shocked to learn that Ray was really an insnakegator:

[rgoudie] I do RAYdiate PUNshine, don't i. [pradtf] dyl> we are just didylling around [rgoudie] dyl> I hope that you make some checks, mate. [imvegan] dyl> i'm sorry, Dylan, but we're all involved in this repunsive activity

Poor Dyl desperately tried to fight back:

[dyl] pradtf> pretends he missed prad's joke [dyl] you too, ranjana?! i had some hope for you. recovery seemed possible.


[imvegan] dyl> i'm sorry Dylan… i know i've let you down…. i just had to opun my mouth ….

Sangeeta had actually been talking about her flute and everyone wanted a concert so I suggested:

[pradtf] sangeeta> we could compress your concert into a siTAR file

Lori returned from lunch, but was not spared:

[pradtf] lori is in digestion

That just about did it for Kirksey who excused himself on the pretext of having some painting to do, but didn't get away with impunity:

[imvegan] kirksey957> great to see you Kirk , afer you finish you can make some appaintments

However, it was evident that Dyl was inspired:

[dyl] the puns are becoming rampunt. (just testing the water. A quick dip of the toes).

bringing the following encouragement:

[pradtf] dyl> if you can't dyl 'em join 'em

Lori had to leave on the pretext of having some chores to do, but she didn't get away with impunity (just in case anyone missed the first one):

[pradtf] lori is choretling off

Then Dyl made a rather strangelooking comment:

[dyl] .

So I had to ask:

[pradtf] dyl> like what's your point

to which he replied:

[dyl] oops. [dyl] pradtf> what's your point….oh dear, prad. lol [dyl] the . was an attempt to refresh the page. nothing was coming up. I also wanted to give you a chance to make another terrible joke or two.

Out of the blue (as so often it happens), Sangeeta asked:

[sangeeta] pradtf> do you think i should watch fiddler on the roof today?

and received:

[pradtf] sangeeta> can't you watch him on tv instead? [dyl] or fetch him a ladder?

It was late for Dyl and he mentioned being tired so we got to do this again:

[pradtf] dyl> that reminds me - do you know why a bicycle can't stand up by itself? [dyl] pradtf> no, please enlighten me! [pradtf] dyl> well, it is two tired [dyl] pradtf> horrible!!!!!! [pradtf] dyl> do you know why tricycles stopped being used? [dyl] pradtf> lol. why? [pradtf] dyl> they keep getting sent into three tirement [dyl] pradtf> i'm literally shaking my head right now.

Ray brought a bit of physics into it:

[rgoudie] pradtf> Do you mean when the wheels are stationary? [pradtf] rgoudie> well there is a demon that keeps them up when they aren't stationary called anghoular momentum

All this got Lori (you see, she wasn't able to leave) to make the following twisted joke:

[bestofme] there were two pretzels walking down the street, one got beaten up, and one got as-salted!

And Dyl tried:

[dyl] i've told my 'bird pooing on the windscreen' joke, haven't i? i really need to find a few more one day.

but we won't go in to this because after telling the joke, Dyl felt he should stick to chess. However, he wasn't let off that easily because Ranjana (who had typically forgotten the punchline to the joke even though she had heard it before from Dyl) added:

[imvegan] dyl> AH well chess might be an impoovement!

with Sangeeta still focussing on the meaning of it all:

[sangeeta] dyl> hmmm…still thinking…i don't mean to poo poo your attempt tho…

Dyl did insist though that his joke was still better than my efforts from a while back:

[dyl] pradtf> but you must admit, it did beat your "let's leave everyone in suspense for half an hour" dancing joke hands down.

even though no one was allowing me to tell that joke (I seem to have forgotten what the joke was though for some reason).

Ray and Sangeeta started up a discussion on hypnosis, soul and mind, the former being an expert on hypnotherapy. I had asked what the relationship was between the soul and the mind. Sangeeta came up with this rather neat comment:

[sangeeta] pradtf> when they come get soulitude…

Ray's description was very interesting and the following ensued:

[rgoudie] pradtf> In my humble opinion, the soul is conscious, intelligent energy, and the mind is that portion that interfaces with the physical world. [pradtf] rgoudie> then you don't see it as mind being conscious and soul be sub or beyond conscious? [rgoudie] pradtf> Not as I see it. In my belief system, we are all souls, each able to experience physical reality through these vehicles we call human bodies. The conscious mind is merely a sharp point that gradually widens until it encompasses the entire soul mind. This is where I believe the term expanding one's consciousness arose. [pradtf] rgoudie> that is interesting - so the interface with the physical world, the conscious, may not be aware of the soul, hence, we do not really know ourselves [rgoudie] pradtf> A hypnotherapist will place a subject in trance. What this means is that the conscious mind is set aside so that the more-expanded soul mind may be fully present. This is where the memories of our experiences are stored. Too many people do not even believe in the soul, so they are not able to access any such memories. If folks would bother to investigate, they would be amazed at the experiences stored in their deeper mind. [pradtf] rgoudie> yes but the way you have described it is very interesting because it seems to explain the dichotomy that we are often told to resolve - that of knowing oneself [rgoudie] pradtf> Yes, truly knowing oneself. This is always what is intended when one is told that "all answers are within".

I was curious about the degree of connections between souls in this model:

[pradtf] rgoudie> ok now if the souls are the conscious, then can souls be connected other than by conscious communication? [rgoudie] pradtf> Yes, souls communicate conceptually. [sangeeta] rgoudie> what do you mean by that? [imvegan] rgoudie> well, it makes sense to me that soul wouldn't be bound by language rgoudie] sangeeta> Well, I didn't want to use the term "telepathy", but there it is. Only the physical plane requires language, because humans do not believe that they may communicate any other way. [sangeeta] rgoudie> prad and i have talked about that…telepathy concept [rgoudie] imvegan> Once the doubting, interfering conscious mind is out of the way, then you would be utterly amazed at what is possible! [sangeeta] rgoudie> interesting cuz prad and i were talking about that…and perhaps what we verbalize is something within our subconscious mind being worked behind the scenes…

Sangeeta wanted to know how I thought Ray's model explained the 'know thyself' concept:

[pradtf] sangeeta> well if mind is the connection to physical reality and must expand to include the soul, as ray has put it, it means that we can't know ourselves (the soul being the conscious) till we put a little effort into it

In other words, the interface alone (the mind being the interface to reality), can only be aware of what it comes into contact with. However, that is a contact with things exterior to the consciousness or soul which is where the 'thyself' resides.

Then I asked:

[pradtf] rgoudie> ok then - where does the subconscious fit in with respect to mind and soul?

Ray answered:

[rgoudie] Picture a sun as drawn by a youngster. It is essentially a circle with bumps, correct? Imagine that the point of each bump is a concious mind currently focused in the physical and involved in its day-to-day activities. If you recede away from the point, you expand your consciousness until you evetually have access to the entire circle.

Another way of looking at this would be to expand the point till it encompasses the circle.

[rgoudie] The so-called subconscious is nothing more that the same mind that is less focused in the physical. I use the terms conscious and subconscious, but do not intend for them to be related to the Freudian concepts.

What made Ray's model so interesting was that it was saying that the subconscious and conscious are the same, that there is only one mind but with a different focus, sort of like peripheral vision. Ray thought that was a good analogy and added:

[rgoudie] Hypnosis is nothing more than the formal attempt to cause a mind to expand away from the tip and access deeper parts of itself. When the filtering conscious mind is set aside, then amazing transformations may take place.

Ray wished to know about my 'picture' of all this and see if the ideas were similar:

[pradtf] the idea that we have is that the conscious is what we are rationally aware of - similar to your idea of the buffer to reality however, the subconscious is something that is a bit like a drop in an ocean - individual but linked with the rest of the ocean. The peripheral vision comes in here as well though at a different level, and expanding your conscious here means to not focus on the 'desires' of the obvious so that you can connect with the subconscious, and knowing yourself means to link with that ocean. [sangeeta] pradtf> the ocean being the "universe" somehow linking to the cosmos and the secrets that lie there - that's interesting for the following reason..i think that "ocean" if you will is where imagination lies…and that is where Einstein acessed some of the mysteries of the universe. [rgoudie] sangeeta> I agree. Most breakthrough ideas come from this collective mind.

Ray wondered what 'yourself' meant in this context:

[pradtf] yourself is not what your conscious understands - that is an illusion or as the hindus say maya [sangeeta] pradtf> what do you mean yourself is not what your consicous understands?

Since the conscious is able to perceive only external stimuli (eg the 5 senses), then it is safe to assume that what is being perceived is the stimuli as opposed to the reality behind it. In fact, the conscious cannot even be sure that the interpretation it makes about the reality behind the stimuli is accurate. Hence, how can the conscious possibly comprehend something such as 'oneself' when this concept doesn't even offer detectable stimuli.

I explored the comparison between the two models:

[pradtf] what i find really interesting about rays idea is that it defines knowing oneself as a positive activity whereas as the other idea is a negative one [sangeeta] pradtf> the other idea is a negative one? don't understand still [rgoudie] pradtf> Negative? [pradtf] ray expands the mind to eventually include the soul - a positive or expansive activity - the other way is to acknowledge maya for what it is and deny its existence - a negative or excluding activity, by eliminating maya you get to the good stuff. Both very interesting and credible, imho though the concepts and axioms are somewhat different.

What seems to make the concepts different, of course, is that the axioms are different. Ray wondered whether the ideas were topologically similar which certainly seem so:

[pradtf] you just have to shift a few terms around and deal with the positive/negative discrepancy in creative way

For instance, the 'conscious' is the same in both, but Ray's soul is similar to what I am calling the 'subconscious'. His idea of knowing oneself amounts to expanding the former so that it can merge with the latter, whereas in my model the subconscious is allowed to come forth when the perceptions of the conscious are revealed to be the illusions they are. In Ray's model, souls can communicate through telepathy, whereas in mine they are linked together as drops in an ocean.

Ray asked about belief systems:

[sangeeta] rgoudie> in terms of my belief system…i don't know if there is a god…i don't care if there is…what i do care about is WHO i am and the integrity that i live with….pretty much that dictates everything i do and think– well at least it is suppose to [rgoudie] For me, as you probably have already guessed, I believe that we are all souls (comprised of conscious, intelligent energy, known as "spirit"), and that we experience the physical using human bodies. Once these bodies die, the portion of energy that was responsible for the physical is drawn back .. [sangeeta] rgoudie> if there is a god…it was would be the divinity that i see in life all around….in the workings of the atom, in the creation of a galaxy, and in the blinking of it all…it's all divine! [rgoudie] into the oversoul and the experiences are merged. This physical plane is nothing more than a 3-dimensional training ground for souls. 13:22:10 [sangeeta] rgoudie> more recently then, for me getting to know god…is the exploration of science and nature…and getting to know self is the quest for integrity….

We three dragons all liked that. I had to leave at this point and though Sangeeta and Ray continued to engage in a most interesting discussion regarding the varieties of dragons, I will conclude this summary with Ray's beautiful comment to Sangeeta regarding integrity:

[rgoudie] sangeeta> perhaps it is because you act according to your beliefs IN SPITE of the resistance that you encounter. To me, this makes you a shining soul! I have respect for anyone that is able to maintain their beliefs in spite of tremendous social and/or peer pressure. This, to me, is the definition of integrity.