'Like Some Clarity' Thread Responses

Their Posture: During the period of rapid increase in heart disease (1920-1960), American consumption of animal fats declined but consumption of hydrogenated and industrially processed vegetable fats increased dramatically. (USDA-HNI)

B: oversimplification, many factors increase risk for heat disease including cholesterol and saturated fat intake but also high intake of (possibly rancid) polyunsaturated oils, refined sugar/grain, sedentarism, and perhaps most significantly animal protein, which is more hypercholesterolemic than saturated fat and may be highly atherogenic

Derek: Whether its saturated fats or hydrogenated fats, neither of them are good for you. This study doesn't prove that saturated fats from animals is good for you, it just proves that we ate less animals and more processed junk foods.

Chris: But during that same period the amount of total animal product intake increased. It became customary to resort to 'low-fat' meats or dairy. However, the fat in the animal products is just part of the problem, There are purines, chol, excess protein (converted to fat), NeuG5c, etc in meat.

Their Posture: Animal fats contain many nutrients that protect against cancer and heart disease; elevated rates of cancer and heart disease are associated with consumption of large amounts of vegetable oils. (Fed Proc July 1978 37:2215)

B: again the China Study makes it clear that animal products in and of themselves are NOT singular causes of cancer, but for various reasons diets high in animal products promote the growth of cancer and therefore increase cancer risk significantly. numerous studies suggest diets high in red meat do increase risk for colorectal cancer however

Their Posture: Argentina, with higher beef consumption, has lower rates of colon cancer than the US. Mormons have lower rates of colon cancer than vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists (Cancer Res 35:3513 1975)

Chris: But no surprise, since Argentinians have lower overall animal product intake.

Their Posture: When coconut oil was fed as 7% of energy to patients recovering from heart attacks, the patients had greater improvement compared to untreated controls, and no difference compared to patents treated with corn or safflower oils. Populations that consume coconut oil have low rates of heart disease. Coconut oil may also be one of the most useful oils to prevent heart disease because of its antiviral and antimicrobial characteristics. (JAMA 1967 202:1119-1123; Am J Clin Nutr 1981 34:1552)

B: this is ridiculous, i've never heard anyone claim it does. the saturated fat in coconut oil does raise serum cholesterol so it may indeed increase risk for heart disease, particularly if fed in very high quantities.. 7% of diet is not very much

Their Posture: A recent study found that women on very low-fat diets (less than 20%) had the same rate of breast cancer as women who consumed large amounts of fat. (NEJM 2/8/96)

Chris: Update: "dietary iron index was directly correlated with 10 types of cancer which correlated with both iron directly and zinc inversely were bladder, breast.."Anticancer Res. 2008 May-Jun; 28:1955-63 … "heme preferentially catalyze oxidative reactions. Heme catalyzed oxidations can damage lipids, proteins, DNA and other nucleic acids and various components of biological systems"Med Hypotheses. 2007;68(3):562-4 … Higher Red Meat Intake May Increase Risk For Certain Breast Cancers ScienceDaily (Nov. 14, 2006) — Eating more red meat may be associated with a higher risk for hormone receptor–positive breast cancers in premenopausal women, according to a report in the November 13 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

B: true, eating a diet rich in lean cuts of meat and low fat milk will not reduce your risk of breast cancer at all. this is what the harvard nurses health study, demonstrated. numerous studies more recent studies on the other hand have shown that all hormones associated with risk for reproductive cancers (including breast and prostate) go down on 10% fat, low protein plant-based diets.

Derek: Not only does a low fat diet prevent breast cancer but it can also reverse it (Ruth Heidrich). 10-20% of calories from fat can still mean they have meat, fish and chicken in their diet. It is recommended to consume less than 10% of your calories from fat.

Their Posture: Margarine eaters have twice the rate of heart disease as butter eaters. (Nutrition Week 3/22/91 21:12)

B: used to be true. margarine used to be very high in transfats, now however most margarine is much lower than saturated fat and transfats than butter.

Chris: To help prevent heart disease, ditch both the margarine and butter. "vegetarians had just as much atherosclerosis as meat eaters." (Lab Invest 1968 18:498) Because they both consume cow dairy. Replacing meat with cow dairy is no better in preventing such diseases.

Their Posture: Americans consume far too much of one kind of EFA (omega-6 EFAs found in most polyunsaturated vegetable oils) but not enough of another kind of EFA (omega-3 EFAs found in fish, fish oils, eggs from properly fed chickens, dark green vegetables and herbs, and oils from certain seeds such as flax and chia, nuts such as walnuts and in small amounts in all whole grains.) (Am J Clin Nutr 1991 54:438-63)

B: again true, people consume too much vegetable/added oil, mostly rich in omega 6. note that the China Study and virtually all reputable plant-based physicians advise we consume very little or no added oil. it's not a whole food, nor is it healthy

Their Posture: The fatty acids found in artery clogs are mostly unsaturated (74%) of which 41% are polyunsaturated. (Lancet 1994 344:1195)

B: true, this does not mean that saturated animal fat is heart health. native inuit and kenyan maasai consume an animal based diet, and inspite of low incidence of heart disease have more atherosclerotic plaque covering their arteries than SAD folk. inuit also have higher incidence of stroke than SAD folk, and more cancer and osteoporosis

Their Posture: Vitamin B12 is not absorbed from plant sources. Modern soy products increase the body's need for B12. (Soybeans: Chemistry & Technology Vol 1 1972)

B: techincally true, algae contain B12 analogues which block B12 absorption, but algae are not plants, they are protists, which are neither plant nor animal. I don't know what he means by soy, it shouldn't contain more B12 than any other plant.

Jacob Chase: While it is true that algae and soy may not be the best sources of B12 (and unhealthy for a number of other reasons as well), implying that animal products are the solution is incorrect. Many meat-eaters are B12 deficient, the deficiency was originally discovered in meat-eaters, and plenty of vegans never suffer from deficiency symptoms. B12 is produced by bacteria, and as such it can be found not only in plants, air, water, etc but also animals, including humans. We produce our own B12 in various parts throughout our bodies, including the salivary glands, the nasopharynx and the intestines. There's some debate as to whether or not ample quantities are provided through internal bacteria, and whether or not this is all absorbed properly, but considering that we have internal production in addition to plant sources, especially organic vegetables, I don't see it as any sort of flaw in the vegan diet. Even if you end up needing to supplement, it still can't be considered a weakness, as virtually everyone supplements through extracts, multivitamins and food anyways. Almost all energy drinks contain extracted B12, most soy products do as well, as does a plethora of other foods.

Chris: The B12 topic is a red herring. Humans require little B12 and it stores well and is available on and in wild/unprocessed plants.

Their Posture: Throughout the world, primitive peoples sought out and consumed fat from fish and shellfish, water fowl, sea mammals, land birds, insects, reptiles, rodents, bears, dogs, pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, game, eggs, nuts and milk products. (Abrams, Food & Evolution 1987)

B: this is just ridiculous, and it certainly doesn't mean that eating like a caveman is healthy. you'd be lucky to live past age 30 in the paleolithic era.

Derek: Sure, I believe that all these animals have been eaten in the past. The unfortunate thing is without weapons (which I've read we didn't have until 200,000 years ago), most of these animals are extremely difficult to catch and eat. Humans are EFFICIENT and our biology proves that. It would be much easier and effective for a human to eat low fat fruits that are easy to capture. I'm sure in times of famine, you would eat just about anything.

Chris: "primitive peoples sought out and consumed fat from fish" And remain constipated, anxious and congested with acid reflux and inflammation.

Their Posture: Children on low-fat diets suffer from growth problems, failure to thrive & learning disabilities. (Food Chem News 10/3/94)

B: children have different nutritional requirements than adults, the tend to need more fat in their diet. this does not mean that feeding kids lots of animal products is good for them, it isn't

Jacob Chase: I agree with this part. Human breast milk is about 50% fat by caloric ratio, and kids should be consuming much higher ratios of fats than adults, with the caloric percentage of fats decreasing with age.

Their Posture: Saturated fats actually improve the production of all prostaglandins by facilitating the conversion of essential fatty acids. (Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation Journal 20:3) B: even if this is true we don't need to consume animal products, there is saturated fat in most plants from coconuts to bananas

Their Posture: Series 2 prostaglandins that the body makes from arachidonic acid both encourage and inhibit inflammation under appropriate circumstances.

B: the body makes it's own AA from linoleic acid, which is abundant in plants.

Their Posture: Arachidonic acid is vital for the function of the brain and nervous system. (Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation Journal 20:3)

B: true but most people consume way too much arachadonic acid from animal products. too much AA actually inhibits the conversion of EPA to DHA (longer chain omega 3s) in the body. a significant portion of the fat content of the brain is made up of DHA, it is vital for brain health, reducing inflamationand decreasing risk for cancer and heart disease

Their Posture: The all-cause death rate is higher in individuals with cholesterol levels lower than 180 mg/dl. (Circulation 1992 86:3:1026-1029)

B: perhaps in the elderly, but false. adults who have cholesterol below 150mg/dl are essentially heart attack proof according to world class cardiologists Caldwell Esselstyn, Bill Castelli (director of the framingham heat study) and William Clifford Roberts. they are also at significantly lower risk for most cancers.

Their Posture: Low-fat diets are associated with increased rates of depression, psychological problems, fatigue, violence and suicide. (Lancet 3/21/92 v339)

Chris: False. No working link provided or mechanism of action has been described for such a claim. Those who are dependent on galanin- an addictive chemical that is increased with dietary fat will certainly experience withdrawals from taking meat, alcohol or refined sugar until long-term detox, though … It was hypothesized that participation in a psychosocial intervention incorporating meditation, social support, positive thinking, and a low-fat, vegetarian diet would have beneficial effects on mood, coping, and quality of life (QOL) in cancer patients. This article describes the sociodemographic, medical, and psychological characteristics of participants in a psychosocial intervention designed for cancer patients. It also describes program impact in terms of Profile of Mood States, Mini-Mental Adjustment to Cancer, and Functional Assessment of Chronic Illness Therapy. Compliance with program recommendations for 3 months and effects on adjustment were also explored. Improvements in all measures were found at program completion Integr Cancer Ther. 2009 Mar;8(1):47-55.

B: just silly. are you feeling violent and suicidal today meg? :)

Derek: That one is extremely easy to debunk. Just look at the LOW FAT raw vegan community and the joy we have.

Their Posture: Every cell in the human body is capable of running on fat as well… and the body can take protien and convert it into sugar…

B: false, brain cells and red blood cells cannot run on FFAs, only glucose Jacob Chase: The former sentence is incorrect, the latter is true but pretty much irrelevant. Every single cell in the human body runs on monosaccharides, simple sugars comprised of only one type of sugar molecule. In order to fuel itself on fat or protein, the body must utilize a process called gluconeogenesis, whereby it converts those caloric sources into usable fuel. However, this process is highly inefficient, and obviously it's much less taxing on the body for it to just use monosaccharides in their direct form.

Their Posture: however, we can fun the body very well on just fat and protien…

B: yes every part except the brain

Their Posture: every cell in the human body in most people runs on sugar because we are obsessed with sugar in our culture…

Jacob Chase: Sure we're "obsessed with sugar", we're obsessed with NOT EATING IT. We have low-carb diets abound, people demonize sugar on a regular basis and it constantly gets blamed for diseases it is not the source of, such as candida and type II diabetes. In other words, his cultural assessment is inaccurate, and in no way represents our society. Also, as stated previously, the body must, absolutely MUST, run on monosaccharides. It cannot use anything else as fuel.

Their Posture: plus are bodys are made structurly out of only protien and fat…

Jacob Chase: This is simply not true, the majority of the human body is composed of water. As much as about 1.5% of human bodyweight is comprised of glycogen, a complex carbohydrate made up of stored glucose. All cells are built, grown and repaired through protein, and fat also serves several uses to the cells, but this says nothing about the human requirements for them. The same principles apply equally to cows and goats, yet few people would argue that those animals require meat in their diets.

Their Posture: plus excess carbs get stored as fat where as fat and protien get used for fuel and structural repair..

B: categorically false, excess protein cannot be stored by the body and must be eliminated, the byproducts of protein break-down include ammonia and urea, both of which are toxic and straining on the kidneys to eliminate. excess dietary fat is going to be stored as fat also, more efficiently than carbs. and show me a sumo wrestler on lfv/lfrv. ain't gonna happen

Jacob Chase: It's true that excess carbs get stored as fat, but how much is too much? Isaac never actually specifies this. The body actually has quite a high storage potential for carbohydrates, as it can store up to around 15 grams of it per kilogram of bodyweight. This means that a 140 pound person (like myself) can store some 3840 grams of carbs (about 38 bananas worth) at a time, and that's constantly being burned off. If you tried to overflow your glycogen stores, you'd hit sugar satiation long before you got to the point where you "over-carbed". You'd feel sick and puke long before you got "too much sugar". Also, we only need so much protein for cellular growth and regrowth, and only so much fat for insulation and such, so there is in fact a definite limit for these nutrients as well. However, in humans at least, that limit is much lower and easily reachable. The protein and fat you do not need will undergo gluconeogenesis for sure, but as previously mentioned this is highly inefficient and the body will inevitably need to store much of this as fats.

Their Posture: The annual all-cause death rate of vegetarian men is slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (.93% vs .89%); the annual death rate of vegetarian women is significantly more than that of non-vegetarian women (.86% vs .54%) (Am J Clin Nutr 1982 36:873)

prad: well may be someone did some study with some sample size to come up with these figures but we should take a look at how it was in 1982 when the veg movement was just getting going. recent studies show that there is a 5-10 increase in lifespan (reference to be confirmed and provided later). veg people just don't get certain diseases that are linked strongly to corpse consumption.

joni: Has he watched any of Dr. McDougall's or Jeff Novick's DVDs. They debunk his "truths". As far as the China Study being Debunked - the China study is only one small part of the book. How can you debunk something that has worked for decades for programs like: Dr. McDougall's, Dr Esselstyn, Dr. ornish, Hans Diehl etc.? You can not believe anything - but I am sure the people who were nearly dying of major health diseases and got well through these drs and others now that what your friend is saying is NOT "Truth". I suppose we can believe anything we want to. There is not point talking to people who don't want to hear. As for 80/10/10 being unhealthy - look at Doug, Freelee, Harley, Michael Arnstein, David Klein, etc etc. If that is unhealthy - he should probably sign up quick. I've never seen bad health look so good.